O curso em que a gente tinha estudado, o panorama era interessante tecnologicamente porque era um grupo de jovens que tinham…. Jason : Mais ou menos da mesma idade. The number 17 is an incorrect on-the-fly calculation based on the year in which he remembers those things occurring — and his year of birth. Eram pocas coisas. E isso era legal, esse prazer era…. The original quotes are shown below:. Jason : Eu comecei a fazer faculdade em 91… 92, isso, Jason : Isso. Na Petrobras foi quando eu meio que comecei a sentir a crise do meu supertecnicismo. Eu sempre fui assim, pego o livro, engulo ele, e vou experimentando tudo que tem ali pra ser experimentado sobre aquilo.
Jason : A reserva de mercado acabou em 88, 89, alguma coisa assim. Eu fiquei… Na verdade, como contratado. Era isso que eu queria fazer da vida. Ah, pronto, consegui. Jason : Antes, bem antes, muitos anos antes. E usa tecnologia de ponta e tal. Quando ela atinge a mim eu fico possesso. Miguel : Exatamente, exatamente. Come se faz [unclear]. Jorge : Rio Grande do Sul, ta?
Mas foi uma coisa fortuita. Como aconteceu isso? E isso fez InterJ uma coisa deixada cada vez mais de lado. Felipe : Olha, a gente… Nada de InterJ. Nunca trabalhava mais com InterJ. Que era a tecnologia de EIT. Yuri : So, if you could tell me how you first heard about Lua, and your experience with it, from the very beginning. I was probably looking for a scripting language to embed in our application, and through forums, and googling, and other things came across it as an option.
So it was really forums, googling and searching for ideas. Craig : Well, we were trying to figure out what kind of scripting language to use. We really needed something, and so decision had to be made what we were gonna use. And the other fairly obvious choice would have been Python. And basically I decided… Based on what I was reading Lua sounded like the best approach, and I can tell you why in a minute, so then we just started attempting to implement it and it continued to snowball from there.
Craig : Well, one thing I was most concerned about was sandboxing, security, making sure that there were no holes internally inherently in the language. That there were reasons to worry about it. I am sure that a real Python expert would be able to refute this. But what little I found, while I was searching, the notions I got, on my web-based research, seemed to imply that. And the other thing of course that made Lua great was the purpoted efficiency, simplicity of integration. Like IO or anything. We needed a language to primarily reference the objects inside our own system and to be able to script them.
Yuri : And so when you decided to use it, how did you go about learning how to actually do that? What kind of resources did you use? Craig : Hmm… Interesting… [Pause. Craig : No, I mean, I regularly read the newsgroup, obviously, or the mailing list.
And I went to the Lua meet up, when was it, last year or the year before, in San Jose. Craig : So yeah, I guess it was a year and a half ago. It was in the Adobe building, in San Jose. But it was fairly early on, so I knew enough to ask annoying questions at the meeting. Yuri : Tell me more about it, why you decided to go and what were your impressions from that specific event. Craig : Well, my reason to go was to get some sense of how serious this is.
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To ask a few questions. To talk with some people about it. More and more now I am very confident about our choice but [unclear]. Who are the other people who use it and why do they use it? Yuri : So, was about the people who use it or was it about Roberto and company showing up from Brazil? Craig : Probably both. Craig : It was good.
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I enjoyed it. I think I only came for half a day. I think it was a multi-day event. It was very nice. The community… Its a young… I should say, seemingly young… Not in age, not in person-age, but a young community. Where people are… They are just making a very good, robust, efficient language. But still at the point where they are willing to not worry too much about legacy stuff. Will this break compatibility? Craig : Because I am busy. I am getting plenty of information and valuable help through the mailing list.
Craig : I guess English language is the lingua franca for Lua as well. From what I can tell. Craig : No. Well, if it were in German, I could manage. But if it were in Portuguese or Spanish or something… no. And of course the question is: What are the primary interests of the caretakers of the language?
Is it to satisfy their academic ambitions? Is it a language to highlight their work on the programming language theory? Or is it something for practical use? Yuri : Practical as in you think they care more about this than academic issues, or do you think they could do both at the same time? Craig : Perhaps it is harder, it might be harder for me to determine than if it were for example at Stanford, then I could… A It would be easier to meet the people or I would know somebody who knows somebody who knows them or something like that. So, in this context it is certainly more opaque.
So, once I discovered that, it was like: hmm, we need to figure this out. Yuri : Did you pay any attention early on to the fact that Lua was based in Brazil? Rich : [Pause. I guess I take a global perspective on things like that. Programming in Perl is written by Larry Wall. And the Lua book was written by Roberto.
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It had a small community and less momentum. So the designers could, when they realized they made a mistake, throw it out, unify the concepts under a different way of thinking. The different abstractions that went from Lua 3 to 4 to 5. Yuri : So, this goes back to what you were saying about Lua having small community being a blessing?
You had to prepare a data file with numbers, would have to in specific columns. Because it was in Fortran, probably. And they wanted to do something easier for the people who were using those problems. And typically you would have a diagram of your simulation and what you did before we went in is that they had this program and they had to remember that line 5 column 3 you had to put a [unclear] or whatever. And no one new really, so they used to make mistakes. If you shift one columns, it would not have any error messages. And this was much easier for them, the engineers.
And Petrobras wanted to do this for several, at least a dozen different simulators. So, we talked to them and came up with an idea: why not design a language so that we can write a single program that would capture this data. This was kind of a typical problem. You would write a simple text file that would say: I want this diagram and in this diagram when I click this entity you should show this kind of a menu and do this kind data validation, things like that.
And then when I am done I want this data to be output in this format. So we wrote this language to spec this kind of task. Yuri : Como foi escrito…? A mesma coisa. Eu acho natural Lua ser assim. Luiz Henrique: But we never targeted any industry. Lua was meant to be used for Tecgraf projects and just that. Yuri : So, if it was mostly meant to be used inside Tecgraf, why was the mailing list in English? Luiz Henrique: The mailing list… The mailing list was never meant to be used by at Tecgraf. Around that time, I remember now, we wrote this article in Dr. So we created the mailing list for that, so that other people could answer our questions.
Luiz Henrique: Yes. It was in February And the Dr. Right, yes. And we thought: maybe Lua is going to get some interest, and how about creating a community? And maybe create a mailing list. Luiz Henrique: Yeah, in a way. But most… If we were going to get a community, maybe we should have a mailing list so that they could talk among themselves?
To not have to answer everyone individually. An interview with Roberto, the second in , conducted several days later. About fourty minutes from the beginning:. Roberto : Completely, completely. When we started Lua… This is one of the things that people do not… When we say in our paper, that paper about the history of Lua, that it went beyond our most optimistic expectations, this is not very true. For instance, when we started, we never created a language for ta-ta-ti-ta-ta-ta.
We really created a language to solve this specific problem we had at the time. Roberto : Yes, I loved programming languages. They needed to solve, they needed a programming language for this specific problem. I had one… [Laughs. I think… I think Luiz sent mail to [long pause] to some groups. Just announcing that there was Lua. And then some people started using it.
Something we wanted, that I remember… Again someone gave us this idea to try to sell Lua. So, we decided we were not going to sell it. But after that we noticed that there were people using it and people were liking it, and we were liking that idea of other people using Lua. That kind of… touched… satisfying. A kind of gratification for us, gratifying, whatever. And so we started to feel good about that. Yuri : And now then, so at some point you then transitioned from that group being sort of not very important, but a source of some kind of satisfaction, to…. Yuri : But one thing that I thought was interesting was… So you wrote Lua as a specific solution for a specific problem at Tecgraf, right?
But then almost immediately, within the same year, you have this paper about it. Roberto : Yes, but notice that this paper is, for instance, one page and is what they call, it was as a kind of a tool fair…. Roberto : Yeah. But I mean, the caderno, the tool book, was just one paper relating what was being exposed in this kind of fair of tools.
It was a kind of practical part of this academic conference. Yuri : And the academic conference in this case, the Symposio Brasileiro …. Yuri : But can you tell me, do you remember how you ended up sending this paper there, even this short paper? We wrote that. I think they still have this in software engineering. I remember sometime later them asking us to review papers for instance, and there was one or two grades related to how does these apply to real situations or how much this is really used, or things like that.
But that was not, I mean, it was academic because we always have this pressure to publish so if we can generate a publication, we always try to do that. Roberto : TecGraf was kind of stable and was not demanding that much. So now when you design… so in those later versions of Lua when you said you changed them with an eye toward what would be more useful… In this case they were designed with this [external] audience in mind rather than Tecgraf? Yuri : Would those actually had been the same thing? I mean, if you actually tried to change Lua in a way always to fit better what Tecgraf needed, would it be different today?
Not exactly specific things, Specific things that emerged, more than people asked. Problems that emerged, in different environments. One instance, one example is embedded devices. Tecgraf never used Lua in embedded devices. Now they use, but I am not sure if they would try to use it, if they would push Lua in this direction by themselves.
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That was something that from… people outside started to use Lua on those very different devices, on very small computers. That put more pressure to make Lua really portable. So, that was our goal, must run on that. It was a very large variety of computers that Tecgraf had, so from the beginning it was very portable. Roberto : I think that they got… with some reason I think they got a little offended with the change to 4. I think this was the first change that we saw that it could hurt Tecgraf but we are going to do it anyway.
But we knew that it was going to have some problems, was going to be a big incompatibility. And so I think that why I say it was a kind of break[ing] point. Roberto : For any new user of Lua. Even for those that decided to change. For instance, [a colleague], he had that system, […]. It was a big system. It was already ready in 4. Silvio : Por volta de , isso. Yuri : E o que aconteceu no ano de ? A gente realmente fez isso, a gente usou Java pra construir o cliente, que a gente queria rodar pela intranet, etc, etc, no navegador. A gente fez esse corte. Silvio : Eu acho que a gente pulou o 4. The Python mailing list quote was originally in Portuguese also.
Eu acho muito legal o Roberto conseguir…. A gente tem um cliente. Mas acho que vou voltar da Microsoft. Porque se usar Lua e der errado, meu chefe vai dizer que eu sou maluco. Lua reflete, no fundo, essa genialidade dele. Foi eu que participava, sempre li esse site, e epa, vamo fazer.
Eles me pedem nunca nada. Que bobagem! O que vou fazer com isso? Uma parte era em C, uma parte era em Lua. Ricardo : [Long pause. A ideia de ser uma tecnologia nacional… [pause], bem estruturada [pause]. Uma proposta pra um framework mesmo, de desenvolvimento pra Internet. Eu achei que…. Pra ser usado por pessoas de todos os cantos, e que funciona. Ricardo : Eu acho que [pause]… essa coisa de ser tecnologia nacional, ou, seja, desenvolvida, mesmo que inicialmente, por pessoas daqui, do Brasil.
Eu acho que isso me empolgava. Mas tudo numa maneira muito informal. E tudo muito… conversa. Tanto que Lua esta por baixo. Yuri : And if this [a poorly written contract about Lua] were to happen, what would be the risk? I mean, what would be the problem from your point of view? Roberto : The problems is that I think that would be very bad for the development of Lua. For instance, that could be very bad for the image of Lua. Is it really free? What they are going to do? You told me, you know that. And then after all these years we kind of conquered some kind of credibility.
And more important, more and more people are starting to admit that they use Lua. Roberto : I think maybe start a little earlier? Because this is something that I was thinking today and something that I am always thinking. The main point is that we have a very, very rough idea of the growth of Lua and how Lua is being used and things like that. I think that because just today, do you know the… there is a programming language popularity index?
Roberto : There is a site that is very well-known, they measure what they call popularity of programming language. Roberto : So then in December it was like in 50, in January it went to 47, February it went to 44, and this month the index just came out today, yesterday and it went to 25th position. It jumped over twenty other languages in one month. Very strange. A lot of languages. But the main point is I have no idea how we are climbing up, what happened in the world that put us that much [up]. Actually, this is the first, how can I say, the first outside book that is really, really about Lua.
And this one is Beginning Lua Programming. Roberto : No, actually, they liked my book. They think mine is more high-level, actually I assume that people know… And their book is more kind of initial. I think there is a lot of [unclear] to grow the whole thing. But then, so, we are always trying to understand what is going on. He writes in different places. Roberto : Sometimes… Now I try to replicate the programming index, for instance, hits. Roberto : Oh, ok. I try to acompanhar, to follow blogs, and I have a link in my bookmarks.
I think I mentioned that sometimes I was kind of nervous for instance about forks or things like that. I think I told that I was afraid sometimes that Lua became much more famous than us, than the group behind Lua and so people… Someone mentioned that—you already mentioned that too, but, for instance how the Lua community behaves this way… That we accept suggestions but we keep control of everything.
So they are… For instance, in Python or Perl, you have a lot of people that actually vote for changes and there are those kind of open decision, open-source decision-making strategies and things like that. You can enter as a committer and you are promoted as a developer and then you have the right to vote and there is all this hierarchy. And Lua is just the three of us… [Laughs. Roberto : No. I mean, in what sense? We thought about not doing that. Roberto : And why? Because exactly… for several different reasons.
I think that always it tends to grow.
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Yuri : But when you say that, what does that mean? What about that scenario do you fear? Pity him who lives at home Happy with his life, Without a dream, a flexing of wings, To make him relinquish Even the warmest ember of his hearth! Pity him who is happy! He lives because life lasts.
Nothing within him whispers More than the primeval law: That life leads to the grave. Vive porque a vida dura. Heteronym : Bernardo Soares, Auxiliary book-keeper in Lisbon and a perfectionist without a real life. He lived in a small apartment in the Rua dos Douradores, and all he had in life was "a few accounting books and the gift of dreaming". One afternoon he was allowed to leave the office earlier to run a personal errand right there in Lisbon; the errand being completed early, he found that given the different hours Lisbon was a strange town he was unfamiliar with, and went back to the office, to the surprise of his colleagues.
Where a portuguese original quote exists, the translation into english was informal. And the supreme glory of all this, my love, is to think that maybe this isn't true, neither may I believe it true. To travel? In order to travel it's enough to be. In Madrid, in Berlin, in Persia, in China, at the Poles both, where would I be but in myself, and in the sort and kind of my sensations? Life is what we make of it.
Travels are travellers.
What we see is not what we see but what we are. Original: Viajar? Para viajar basta existir. All quotations provided in English as translated by Richard Zenith. Main article: The Book of Disquiet. Wikisource has original works written by or about: Fernando Pessoa. Namespaces Page Discussion.
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